Williams Family Tree

Brenda Sennitt thinks that John Thomas was a "master carpenter" who worked on banks, among others.
And that John and Annie eventually parted. (Only way they could get the babies to stop?)

Margaret Wells says:

JTW - my mother says that after Annie left him he was rarely spoken of again and never referred to by name just "the old man". She says she does not know what caused the split.

Delwen"s info is as follows:- After Annie left JTW in 1917 and returned to Cefn Coed she severed all contact with his family to the extent that when Ivor took an interest in the family history in1940s she was obstructive to the point of lying to him about where John Thomas's family lived.

Ivor believed JTW's family came from Ystydfallte originally but didn't manage to see the parish records there to check.

JTW stayed in London and traded with Ivor his son (and apprentice) from firstly offices in the Elysian Mission on Old Street roundabout and later premises at 24 Aldgate Avenue EC1 and 70 Dalston Lane E8.

Occupation listed as "Clerk of Works" by Aneurin on Annie Watkins's death certificate!

This from Delwen via margaret Wells 2 Feb 2009:

Margaret Wells
to Emrys


This is what I had from Delwen last year . She is happy to share this info.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: <private>
> Date: 25 October 2008 00:42:25 BDT
> To: "Margaret Wells" <private>
> Subject: Re: personal
>
> Hi Margaret.
>
> I have a photocopy of the birth certificate of John Thomas Williams born on 7/3/1871 at the Castle Inn (32 Morlais, Pant Road, Dowlais, where his father, William Williams was the publican. The birth was registered on the 13/4/1871 in the sub-district of Upper Merthyr Tydfil. According to my father John Thomas was a successful builder in the area. My father once pointed out to me a row of semi-detached houses in Merthyr which your great-grandfather built "for £100 a pair " in the late 19th century. He was also secretary of a Methodist chapel. He was the youngest of three brothers and eventually fell out with the oldest. Not being a man to lose an argument John Thomas went to a travelling fair andpaid a prize fighter to teach him bare fist fighting. He used the skill he acquired to beat his older brother senseless on more than one occasion. It was this conflict which caused him to move his family and business to London, where he first took offices in the Elysian Mission on the Old Street roundabout and later traded with my father as J & I Williams from premises at 24 Aldgate Avenue EC1 and 70 Dalston Lane E8.
>
> Annie Watkins was a milkmaid before her marriage, the school she attended certainly disappeared under the Heads of the Valley reservoir system,(though I had a feeling my father said the place where she actually lived did not) When she left John Thomas in 1917 and returned to Cefn Coed she severed all contact with his family and when my father first took an interest in family history in the 1940's she was obstructive to the point of lying to him about where John Thomas' family lived. However my father remembered that John Thomas was referred to in Cefn as "Sionni Blaen Tringarth" following the custom they still have in the area of tacking the address on the end of people's names. So it is fairly certain that he must have lived there at some point, perhaps after his father's death. According to my father the men in the family tended to die quite young and "no child saw its grandfather for 3 generations". My father told me he had come to the conclusion the family came from the area of Ystydfallte and that he believed he would find details in the Parish church records there , but had never found the church open when he visited the area.
>
> Annie Williams née Watkins died on 25-6-1950 in South London hospital. the death certificate from the sub district of Clapham gives her age as 76 years. I remember my father commenting the Watkins were much longer lived than the Williams when we were looking at some grave stones in a churchyard (in Cefn, I think). According to my father most of the inhabitants of Cefn in 1917 belonged to one of 3 families, the Watkins, a Williams family, of whom your grandfather Charlie was one, and a second family of Williams.
>
> My father's research consisted mostly of collecting oral testimonies from Annie's numerous nieces and nephews. Unfortunately he never seems to have written any of this down. the more scientific research was done by my father's cousin Tydfil. She traced the Price family back from Annie's mother to the early 18th century. I remember her putting a note on a Christmas card to say she had stood on the grave of a Price who died in 1715. My father claimed a relationship to the 19th century eccentric Dr William Price (article from a magazine of 1943 attached in case you have never heard of him) but I don't know if he had real evidence for this.
>
> In 1999 Irene Buxton bought her son with her to my 25th wedding anniversary because he was researching family history. I don't know if he went on to find anything about the Williams line. He was living in the Kettering area at the time but I don't have an address for him. Does your mother have an address for Irene or Maisie Parks or her son Stephen that would enable you to get in touch with him and ask?
>
> I still have a copy of May's birthday list showing the birthdates of all your grandmother's brothers and sisters so if you don't have this already I can send you a copy. I can't think of any other clues that might help you with your research I'm afraid. Let me know how you get on
> Delwen
>

And here is the article on William Price that Delwen attacched:

Doctor Price was born in 1800. He was a remarkable man, and although there are few references to his life in contemporary literature, his eccentricity and unconventional mode of living have made him a widely discussed figure in south Wales.
There is a divergence of opinion regarding the small intimate details of his personal history, some maintaining that he was a wicked man; others claiming that his unorthodox views would have been upheld had he lived in a more enlightened age.
There are still many among the older generation who remember the doctor; tall, upright and commanding as be strode across the valleys and hills to attend to his patients, dressed in his peculiar garb which he claimed was similar to that worn by the ancient founders of the Druidic system.
Upon his head he wore a huge fox-skin; this representing his emblem as a healer. The tails and legs of the skin dangled about his snowy hair, which was long and plaited. Over a white tunic he wore a scarlet cloth waistcoat. ornamented by small brass buttons. His trousers were green, and a green long-sleeved bolero coat partly covered the scarlet waistcoat. The edges of the coat sleeves and trousers were cut Van Dyck fashion. He had made an extensive study of Druidic lore, and claimed that these colours were representative of that cult.

As a child he was strange, preferring the solitude of the hill to the company of others of his own age. Here he studied Nature and recited poetry aloud. His worried father decided to send him to Doctor Evan Edwards, of Caerphilly, for the boy had set his heart upon becoming a doctor. He was fourteen when he left home and went to live with the Edwards family. He spent five years :at Caerphilly. and here he learned to speak English, a language which had been forbidden in bis own home. He also taught himself a little Latin, and, at the age of twenty, went to London, where he qualified as a medical practitioner.
Returning to Wales he opened up a practice in a small village near a coal-mining district, soon becoming renowned as a healer. There is no doubt that he was a clever doctor and surgeon. Patients flocked to him, even though they viewed him with superstitious awe, for his methods were, to say the least, unorthodox.
Among other things he interested himself in law and took a keen delight in conducting his own cases, which he usually won. He went to law over the most trivial affairs his amazing rhetoric and brilliant wit astounding all who listened to him.
He had a house built on a wooded slope near Pontypridd; a curious structure with round towers. On one occasion, being sued for rent, he took off part of the roof and pleaded that the house was uninhabitable. Another time, while creditors were hammering at the door, he hid himself in an oaken box and was solemnly carried out of the house; the creditors standing reverently aside under the impression that the box held the body of a dead person.
The celebrated Rocking Stone still stands on Pontypridd Common, and here Price performed the ancient Bardic rites. For this ceremony he wore a long-sleeved overall with tightly fitting trousers which reached to his ankles. Hieroglyphic figures decorated this weird outfit. He carried a staff surmounted by a half-crescent, to represent the new moon.
The awe-stricken villagers gathered to watch him perform these rites and to hear him chant the " Song of the Primitive Bard to the Moon," but they took care to keep at a safe distance, for they were convinced that the doctor was in league with the devil, and that he had the power to cast spells.
He became interested in the Chartist movement and in 1839 was made a leader. After an insurrection which failed, a warrant was issued for his arrest, but Price fled to France, disguised as a woman.

He did not believe in matrimony. He said it was an institution which reduced the fair sex to slavery. "No law or religions ceremony," he averred, "can compel a man and woman to love each other, but it can and does compel them to live together, which is immoral." He believed that a man and woman who loved each other should live together in onder that time should prove the genuineness of their love "This," he argued, "is true morality.*'

The one woman who kept his affection to the end was his housekeeper, Gwenllian Llewelyn. By her he had several children, and he was eighty-three when a boy was born to them. He named this child lesu Grist (Jesus Christ).

It was a great blow to him when this child died at the age of five months. He decided that he would cremate the body, for he had always asserted that cremation was preferable to burial because "it is unfair to the earth, the air, to the waters, and to all beings that carcases should be allowed to rot and decompose."

One Sunday night he carried the child to the field at Caerlau, where he had prepared for the cremation. News of this unheard-of event bad spread around, and the villagers, frightened and curious, made their way to the hillside to watch the proceedings. They saw the doctor standing inside a ring of fire, and curiosity soon turned to anger. They advanced upon him, shouting and waving huge sticks. He took no notice of them, and had it not been for the immediate action of two policemen he would have been lynched.

One policeman drew his baton and kept the crowd at bay, while the other, throwing his cape over his head, dashed through the flames and dragged the doctor down the hillside to the Pontypridd police station. Here he was detained for the night, and subsequently taken to Swansea charged with burning the dead body of his child. He conducted his own case, and having won it, brought a charge against the police for unlawful detention.
He demanded the return of his baby's body, but refused to promise that be would not again burn it. In fact, be successfully carried out the cremation on March 21, 1884, and on many occasions after that cremated the dead bodies of his animals in defiance of tbe law.

The hatred of many villagers had now reached fever heat, and one dark night, a few weeks after the cremation of lesu Grist, a mob attacked the doctor's house. Price was not at borne, but Gwenllian Llewelyn and her children were alone in the bouse. She was a brave woman and, loading some pistols, kept tbe crowd at a distance until the police arrived.

Price was ninety whan his last child was born. This one he also named lesu Grist, but he died before the child reached its third year.
Although his health had begun to fail when he was ninety-one, he retained his facilities and attended the patients who arrived from al! parts of Wales. Eventually, however, be was forced to give in, but obstinately refused to go to bed, insisting that he would die on the living-room couch. He died on this couch on January 23, I893, and his last act was to drink a glass of champagne.

He left instructions that be should be cremated on the spot where the body of his baby son had been burned. A sixty-foot pole had been erected to mark the place, and at noon on Tuesday, January 31, crowds flocked to the field at Caerian to witness tbe first acknowledged cremation to be held inWales.

Public interest was intense and hundreds of admission tickets were sold, but the police arranged that the cremation should take place at seven in tbe morning instead of at noon.

It was a cold, wet morning, and the carriages which left the yard of the Pontypridd police station contained dozens of stalwart policemen, who arrived at the late doctor's house shortly before dawn. Tbe door of the house opened and the bearers filed out, carrying an iron casket. Gwenllian Llewelyn followed with her children. lesu Grist wore a suit ot green cloth and head-dress of fox-skin, an exact replica of his father's attire.
The bearers stumbled under their heavy burden as they climbed the muddy slope of the field. They wanted no help from the policemen, but eventually the police superintendent ordered his men to give a hand in shouldering the hier.

The summit of the bill was reached. Here a huge tunnel had been constructed. Railway lines ran into the mouth of the tunnel, which was banked high tens of coal, saturated with paraffin, The funeral service was read, and at a given signal a light was applied to the pyre.
It is small wonder, then, that the name of Doctor William Price will never be forgotten in Wales. He lived a hundred years before his time, and died as he had lived— fearlessly.

Brenda Sennitt said (see sources) :

JTW saved his daughter Brenda's life. May made her a cotton skirt with lots of pleats. She ran in to JTW and span round in front of the fire to show it off and it burst into flames. JTW put the flames out with his bare hands.

JTW's daughter Brenda was married to Stephen Lucy and lived in Aberdare. She opened the front door and saw a strange chap standing on the far side of the street standing looking at her house. She shut the door. Only later did she realise that it had been JTW.

Ivor Fielder in conversation said that May was raised at Yastrafelt, or something like that. Is that the same as Ystydfallte? Actually that should be Ystradfellte. Ivor commented that there was a waterfall there, and ther is a fall in Ystradfellte. That's not in the Taff valley, but in the next valley over.

Ivor Fielder said that JTW disappeared, and everyone rushed round London looking for him, and didn't find him. Was this when JTW and Annie broke up, in 1916 or 1917?

I (EJWilliams) suspect that JTW's birth name was plain John Williams. The inheritance letter refers to him being listed by Margaret Thomas as John Williams. he signed Wella's marriage certificate as John Williams. He listed himself on the 1901 census as John Williams. LCWilliams, his son, wrote on the back of his picture, "John Williams". [That's the "John thomas williams 1 back.jpg" picture.]

But Thomas Watkins listed him as John T Williams in the 1891 census. Annie listed him as John Thomas Williams on Gwladys's birth certificate and on May's birth certificate.

I do wonder whether the birth certificate we have for JTW is actually the right one.

There is a confusion with John (born 1900) Williams. He was registered at birth as John Watkins Williams, but used that and also John Thomas Williams throughout his life.

Oh, I have no idea, really!

According to the 1911 census, Annie was 38 and John (not John Thomas) was 40 on April 2 1911, and they had been married 22 years. Mike Buxton points out that this implies that they married when Annie was 16 and John 18. The marriage was sometime between 1 April 1888 and 31 March 1889. Annie is listed as having born 12 children alive, of whom 10 are living and 2 are dead. But we so far know of only 10 children born by this date - everyone up to Haydn, she was only just pregnant with Owen in April 1911. So there are two children born alive who died who we have never heard of. Mike Buxton asks whether this explains the mystery of their marriage at the 1891 census. On 5 April 1891, they were living with Annie's parents as man and wife, yet May (Sarah) wasn't born until 16 Nov 1891, so it woudl barely have been possible for even Annie to know she was pregnant. So Maybe she was pregnant before, which led to their marriage at such an early age when they had no home to go to, and the baby then died. That would be a Williams born in Merthyr sometime between 1 April 1888 and somewhere around 30 Sep 1889. Which would be easy to find if the birth certificates were properly indexed, but they're not.

I still can't find any record of their marriage.

Is this JTW in 1881? This is actually 163 High Street Cefn Coed, so is literally a stone's throw from the family stamping ground.
1881 census transcription details for: *163 High Street, Vainor (Brecon)**National Archive Reference:* *RG number:* RG11 *Piece:* 5318 *Folio:* 75 *Page:* 10 *Reg. District:* Merthyr Tydfil*Sub District:* Upper Merthyr Tydfil *Enum. District:**Ecclesiastical District:* *Parish:* Vainor (Brecon) *City/Municipal Borough:* *Address:* 163 High Street, Vainor (Brecon) *County:* Glamorganshire*Name* *Relation* *Condition* *Sex* *Age* *BirthYear* *Occupation,Disability * *Where Born*------------------------------ EDWARDS, John Head Married M 46 1835 Iron Puddler LlandoveryCarmarthenshireWales------------------------------ EDWARDS, Margt Wife Married F 58 1823 YstradfellteGlamorganshireWales------------------------------ WILLIAMS, Thos Lodger Married M 53 1828 Ashfiller (Iron) YstradfellteGlamorganshireWales------------------------------ WILLIAMS, William Nephew Single M 16 1865 B/smiths Striker MerthyrGlamorganshireWales------------------------------ WILLIAMS, Thomas Nephew Single M 13 1868 Scholar MerthyrGlamorganshireWales------------------------------ WILLIAMS, John Nephew Single M 11 1870 Scholar MerthyrGlamorganshire

YES! Margaret was from Ystradfellte in 1881. William father-of-JTW had a father Thomas Williams, deceased. So did "Margaret Williams" who married John Edwards in 1865, both from Cefn. There were Margaret and William offspring of Eleanor, widow born Defynnog, in Cefn High street in 1861 and 1851, with their brother Thomas, all born in Ystradfellte. There was a Thomas Williams from Ystradfellte who married an Eleanor in Llywel, 5 miles from Defynnog, in 1822, Margaret's birth year. JTW and his 2 brothers, of about the right ages and birthplaces, are living with their uncle in 1881, and both John Edwards and Thomas Williams qualify as their uncle. Thomas in 1881 is the right age and birthplace and occupation to match the Thomas who is Margaret's brother. One big happy family!

JTW was supposedly born in the Morlais Castle Inn in March 1871, but can't be found in the 1871 census. That may be becaue that part of the census is missing. I've looked hard and can't find the records for that bit of Pant Road either at Ancestry or Findmypast. The numbers of the census summary books have gaps in them. Maybe that information is just gone. EJW nov 2010.